Conservative in the Dating World

nobody@vox.com(JudgeBob) — Fri, 02 May 2008 04:02:32 -0700

JudgeRight's Journal

View JudgeRight's: profile / journal / photos

I'm Not Mr. Right? | Apr 30

I was listening to Dennis Prager at http://krla870.townhall.com/ today and he had a guest (Lori Gottlieb) on today for his male/female hour to talk about women's expectations for their life mate. I always find it refreshing when secularists get real honest. Her article (the reason she was his guest) entitled "Marry Him" found at http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200803/single-marry discusses very honestly, her expectations, her choices, her feelings then and now. What she advocates in the article is exactly what the church, what most conservatives, what most married women have been saying since the start of the feminist movement. Sorry, you've been lied to. "You can't have it all!" Nobody gets it all. Compromises are a part of the human condition. You can't have a full time career and be a full time parent without all three (family, career, you) suffering some consequences.

More to the point, women's expectations have been heightened to the point of holding out for Mr. Right. Raising expectations has had three effects on our society which have harmed everybody's ability to find lasting happiness and certainly harmed our desire and ability to meet and marry for life.
1. On men, the expectation of men to act more civil, more caring, more (you name the effeminate trait) has reduced the perception of men's value in themselves as well as in society at large.
2. On women who do marry, many of their marriages suffer because of the unmet expectations of men and so find much less happiness in their relationships. There's a whole chapter in Dennis' book (Happiness is a Serious Problem) on the detrimental effects of unmet expectations.
3. On women who opt for career over family, The ultimate lack of fulfillment so many have found in successful careers.

This brings me to the point of my article here. I am not Mr. Right and I'm certainly not Mr. Perfect. I AM Mr. Good Enough. I have maintained a steady job nearly my entire working life, I have long term relationships with deep emotional commitment, I have bought into the standard of morals that have stood the test of thousands of years known as Christianity, I have a joyous spirit, and I've been through a recovery program to deal with the baggage life has a habit of saddling us with. I still have faults, but I am working to improve myself and will continue that work until the day God calls me home.

So, just three little tidbits of advice to all the lovely ladies. 1. Reject the idea that you can have it all. You'll wear yourself out trying to get it and generally hurt everyone in your life by investing yourself too thin in each endeavor.
2. As much as you want what you want from your man, realize that he isn't a harry woman who should think, feel, and act like you would. Honestly, we don't even feel emotions in the same parts of our bodies. We are that kind of different, so are our needs, desires, and appreciation.
3. The man in your life that best meets the basic needs for a lifelong relationship is probably the best overall option for you. Mr. Perfect is the guy in romance novels usually written by women lost in fantasy. Romance novels are to women the equivalent of porn to men in that it further strengthens those unrealistic expectations. Mr. Right is awfully close to Mr. Perfect. He is expected to sweep you off your feet and win your eternal respect and foist upon you his eternal love. Reality is all relationships struggle at times. (Struggle; to fight for its life) Mr. Good Enough is the guy that you feel makes your life better more than he makes it worse and believes the same about you in his life.

That's my judgment.

Permanent Link

Page: 1 2

So do you want to be the "settled for"? The one where the woman finally listens to that advice and says "ah well, I'm never going to get what would really make me happy...I guess he'll do..."? I'm not naive. I don't have unrealistic fantasy ideals about what love and relationships should be. And you think it's a negative thing that men act more civil and caring? Yes, let's go back to the days when at best, men just worked and came home expecting meals to be waited on hand and foot, and at worst, when men beat their wives with impunity?

EclecticWoman: 42F | bisexual | Nipomo, California, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

And judgment it is. Though I remember this important figure in the Bible saying something like "Judge Not"

DO NOT SETTLE. EVER. Wait until you find what you want. What is important to you is what you should have. Not everyone is looking for a "Fabio" with a buttload of money. Some of us are looking for someone that we love because we love THEM regardless of their bank account, or their 6-pack abs. That stuff is completely temporary. Heart, Soul, Character, Personality, these things stay. I was nearly married many times. And I waited until I was almost 40, as I saw many of my friends entering their 2nd 3rd or 4th Marriages. One of my Cousins on my Mom's side (The Puerto Rican Side) has a daughter, my second cousin once removed and she has been married 3 times. Blanca (my second cousin). Said to me, "You were smart to wait. I wish _____(her daughter) had done the same.

Yeah, this Post is about as helpful as that book, "The Rules"

CountessM: 40F | bisexual | San Diego, California, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

ATTENTION OKCUPIDERS! WOMEN SHOULD LOWER STANDARDS, FOR THE GOOD OF SOCIETY. wait...seriously?

cricketsmack: 27F | straight | Florissant, Missouri, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

While I don't necessarily buy into it that men can't behave in a civil manner and really don't see that as an "effeminate" characteristic, you do make some good points about unrealistic expectations brought about by our current society by both men and women. I do take a certain offense that women should be content to not have a career. Most women in this society will raise children for 20 years or less. Their life expectancy is around 80. What they are going to do with the other 50 years of life that doesn't include children, assuming they have their children between 20 and 25? Why does being married mean you can't have both a successful career and a successful marriage?

bluemayfly: 45F | straight | Steptoe, Washington, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

CountessM--yeah, that woman is a piece of work...she also had this to say: And despite growing up in an era when the centuries-old mantra to get married young was finally (and, it seemed, refreshingly) replaced by encouragement to postpone that milestone in pursuit of high ideals (education! career! but also true love!), every woman I know—no matter how successful and ambitious, how financially and emotionally secure—feels panic, occasionally coupled with desperation, if she hits 30 and finds herself unmarried. Oh, I know—I’m guessing there are single 30-year-old women reading this right now who will be writing letters to the editor to say that the women I know aren’t widely representative, that I’ve been co-opted by the cult of the feminist backlash, and basically, that I have no idea what I’m talking about. And all I can say is, if you say you’re not worried, either you’re in denial or you’re lying. In fact, take a good look in the mirror and try to convince yourself that you’re not worried, because you’ll see how silly your face looks when you’re being disingenuous. Um. Yeah... (Originally read about this tripe at feministing.com)

EclecticWoman: 42F | bisexual | Nipomo, California, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

On men, the expectation of men to act more civil, more caring, more (you name the effeminate trait) has reduced the perception of men's value in themselves as well as in society at large.

Last time I checked civility and care were not effeminate traits. I think that you are dreadfully wrong on this point and would love to see some facts supporting it.

On women who do marry, many of their marriages suffer because of the unmet expectations of men and so find much less happiness in their relationships. There's a whole chapter in Dennis' book (Happiness is a Serious Problem) on the detrimental effects of unmet expectations.

It seems to me that this also supports the idea that women should not settle. Have you ever *tried* lowering your expectations? I seriously doubt that any woman could say -I guess he will do- and not regret that decision or resent him later.

On women who opt for career over family, The ultimate lack of fulfillment so many have found in successful careers.

My mother worked on her career and my father stayed home with us as a full-time parent and I have never heard either parent truly regret these decisions. My mother is happy with her career and has her family, just not in the -I made you dinner for thirty years- way. I think you are ridiculous to suggest that you know what will make every woman happy.

This brings me to the point of my article here. I am not Mr. Right and I'm certainly not Mr. Perfect. I AM Mr. Good Enough.

And now we do get to the point. I think you should change your standards to include me. I really could have done without all of the rest.

Reject the idea that you can have it all. You'll wear yourself out trying to get it and generally hurt everyone in your life by investing yourself too thin in each endeavor.

I can decide what priority I place on each aspect of my life, and putting a higher priority on one aspect does not mean I have to give up the others entirely. I think you are confused.

As much as you want what you want from your man, realize that he isn't a harry woman who should think, feel, and act like you would. Honestly, we don't even feel emotions in the same parts of our bodies. We are that kind of different, so are our needs, desires, and appreciation.

Speaking for all men is always a bad idea. No one likes broad generalizations. heh.

The man in your life that best meets the basic needs for a lifelong relationship is probably the best overall option for you.

I dont see how this excludes the idea of someone being absolutely right for me.

Mr. Good Enough is the guy that you feel makes your life better more than he makes it worse and believes the same about you in his life.

Entering a relationship with the idea that there will never be problems is naive, but entering a relationship because someone is -good enough- is just as naive. At some point, you will regret the fact that you decided to settle for someone. I can have my Mr. Right while still understanding that Mr. Right doesnt mean Mr. and Mrs. No Problems.

Thats my judgment.

cricketsmack: 27F | straight | Florissant, Missouri, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

tl;dr

summary: I think you should change your standards to include me.

fyp

cricketsmack: 27F | straight | Florissant, Missouri, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

My Nieces and Nephew went to a very Christian school. 2 of my Nieces friends got married. One knew the guy for about a year. He was also a "Christian" and in the Marines. She got married at 22. Her husband goes on a tour of duty and returns. Mind you, he has married a virgin who has never had sex before and not much experience outside of that. He came home, had sex with her and gave her Herpes. He is a carrier. He told her that while he is on tour he should be allowed to have sex with other women. Rather than getting a divorce, now she is trying to get pregnant, because that will make the marriage better. So I can embed this situation into that same situation Eclectic wrote about. She will be a single 30 woman, with herpes, and a child. I am sure she will have similar revelation when she looks in the mirror....

CountessM: 40F | bisexual | San Diego, California, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

I was listening to Dennis Prager

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Diacritic: 29M | bisexual | Indianapolis, Indiana, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

What the heck ever happened to people just making relationships what THEY want. I'm so sick of people projecting what their ideas of relationships should be on the rest of us. Esecially people who call themselves religous. As long as the people in a relationship are happy I could care less what the curch, goveernment, or other people think. If people like the OP spent as much time minding their own relationships as they did prostelatyinzg the rest of us they would have no reason to go off on bitter rants that sound more like a paraphrase of "why can't I get a date, or why am I not getting laid?". I have been So much happier since I figured out everything the church threw at me regarding how relationships with men and women are supposed to go in the trash can. I do what I want. I can dom with the best of em in the bedroom and stay home with my sick kids and wash dishes if I feel like. I define my relationships.

misterguitar816: 35M | straight | Raleigh, North Carolina, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

Well heck, this guy sure knows how to win over the ladies. The very first sentence of his profile is "I demand an apology from you leftist hypocrites or anybody who's ever condemned a Christian for judging."'

If I were a woman, I would settle for him <3

onehalfspin: 27M | straight | Ann Arbor, Michigan, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

There's a heapload of research that shows that women who work outside the home are physically and psychologically healthier than those who do not, and that many women feel more appreciated at work than they do at home. In addition, the main cause of conflict at home is men's 'unmet expectations', or rather women's 'unmet expectations' that their husbands might do more of their share of the household chores and the childcare, rather than expect their time outside work to be leisure time, while their wives do the 'second shift' at home.

There is no evidence that women are going to leave the workforce in any great numbers. A recent Pew survey showed that most women with families wanted to work, although many of those in both full-time work and full-time at home would prefer part-time work. I suspect this is in part due to the difficulties in achieving some balance in the face of the family-unfriendly work policies in the US, and men's inability to adapt to the changes in the family.

When there is talk of compromise, it always seems to be women who are being asked to compromise. They already compromise by doing most of the household chores in most families. Can't men compromise? What about the recent report that showed that women were turned on by men doing housework?

harpy61: 47F | straight | Chicago, Illinois, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

I love what you have to say harpy, but I would quibble that if one side is making all the concessions then it's not compromise. Just my grammar geek picking on that one word :)

RundesNettes: 45F | bisexual | Seattle, Washington, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

Oh, harpy, you know women don't really get turned on. They just pretend to once a year on the man's birthday in order to make him happy, and they hate every second of it even though they feel that they have to. This is because of feminists.

skinnyartnerd: 30M | straight | Prairie Village, Kansas, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

diacritic; ditto. OP; drivel. Me; man.

Oregoy: 57M | straight | Grants Pass, Oregon, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

What I find most interesting about you Mr. Judgment is that on your profile it says you're looking for "Casual Sex Partners" with no mention of wanting anything more long-term. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it just seems so counter-intuitive to your right wing, religious diatribes.

themooncalf: 43F | straight | Los Angeles, California, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

Well, mooncalf, I expect he doesn't want to buy the cow when he can get the milk for free. Isn't that what the fundies used to say?

harpy61: 47F | straight | Chicago, Illinois, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

Don't be silly, Mooncalf. He's celibate. Perhaps he's just using that 'Casual Sex Partners' setting so that when somebody writes to him asking for hot no strings attached sex, he can gently advise them on the error of their ways and suggest that they search for something more meaningful, to strive to find Somebody Good Enough. (Personally, I'm considering lowering my standards enough to include him right now. I like tall men...)

cyranocoyote: 39M | straight | Mountain View, California, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

^ I laughed. I like the idea of him luring in sinners.

cricketsmack: 27F | straight | Florissant, Missouri, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

Well, I'm glad to see at least a couple of you read through the links. Let me address a couple of your charges. First, I do think a woman should work outside the house. I don't think both parents should be working full time jobs especially when the kids are very young. Second, I'm new here so I hope you'll forgive my oversight of the setting on my whatever it is that says I'm looking for casual sex. I'm not. Third, I'm divorced and married late in life. So yeah, I know about settling and about a wife's infidelity. We didn't have kids because she physically couldn't and though I wanted kids I married her anyway. But here's the itch. All the commenters are tallied up as less than 50% match and generally more than 50% enemy to my conservative values (except Onehalfspin) who sounds a lot more conservative. So my politically incorrect post raising your political ire is the only motivation you have for commenting. To Eclectic; please read the profile. Now to answer the only comment with any depth of reason. [There's a heapload of research that shows that women who work outside the home are physically and psychologically healthier than those who do not, and that many women feel more appreciated at work than they do at home.] I'd like to see some of that research. Everything I've seen suggests just the opposite and everybody feels more appreciated at work than at home.

JudgeRight: 48M | straight | Tustin, California, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

Oops; Looks like I confused statements to who said what. Oh well, you can see who I was trying to respond to.

JudgeRight: 48M | straight | Tustin, California, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

Arlie Hochschild, The Time Bind.

Baruch, Biener and Barnett "Women and Gender in Research on Work and Family Stress" American Psychologist 42 (1987).

Spitz, "Women's Emploment and Family Relations: A Review" Journal of Marriage and the Family 50 (1988)

Repetti, Matthews and Waldron, "Employment and Women's Health: Effects of Paid Employment on Women's Mental and Physical Health," American Pyschologist 44 (1989)

harpy61: 47F | straight | Chicago, Illinois, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

Well, to address your comment that women feel more appreciated at home...no we don't. I was married for 19 years to a man who took it for granted that I would do everything to make sure our lives went smoothly. He actually wrote me a letter after I filed for divorce apologizing for dumping the entire load of our lives together on my shoulders while I was working full time, trying to earn a bachelors degree, and taking care of our kid and my mother. Did I feel appreciated during any of that time? No. Not once did he tell me that he appreciated what I did for him. According to him, that was my "job". And after I got my degree, all he wanted to know was when I was going to support him so he could quit working. Was he like a majority of men? No, in my experience since my divorce, he was not but there are enough men like him out there that women would do well to be wary. As for the OP, conservatives, churches, and other anti-feminist forces have a vested interest in getting women to step back into second class status in this country. "Stay home and take care of the husband and children...that's your place and you're just too weak to be able to have a career, raise children, and keep your husband happy." I've spent most of my life proving this kind of thing wrong, as have most of the women commenting on here. It has nothing to do with ideals or being conservative or liberal, it's about women who have been and are living their lives in ways that are fulfilling to them.

bluemayfly: 45F | straight | Steptoe, Washington, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

The match bullshit is not always on the mark, Mr Judgy. My Husband was a 70%, and we could not be more compatible. I am a democrat, I am pro choice and I believe in the death penalty.

I also think you are chock full of shit.

And...that's my judgment for this evening.

Oh, and BTW OP you look like my Neighbor, Robert who is gay, and is really nice and brings us cookies all the time. Poor Robert.

CountessM: 40F | bisexual | San Diego, California, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

Oh, it's not my political ire that causes me to reply, it's the fact that I study work and gender (and teach it), including work-family balance, so when I read something that contradicts the research that I've read about and that I've done, then I want to set the record straight.

Part of the problem is that America hates families, pretty much. 12 weeks statutory UNPAID maternity leave? Puhleez. No statutory paid vacations? Higher average working hours that any other developed industrial country? Pitiful minimum wage, so that poor people have to work multiple jobs (if they can find them)? Americans work an extra 9 weeks per year (350 hours) compared to Europeans. No wonder it's hard for people to balance work and a family. And having one partner stay home with kids is not viable for many families financially, even if one partner wanted to do so (which is a minority of people anyway, as the Pew study I mentioned demonstrated).

harpy61: 47F | straight | Chicago, Illinois, United States
Apr 30 - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

Reading this type of post always bothers me. Women are people and can do anything they put their minds to. Humanity is not all cut from the same cloth and their is no single correct formula for relationships and life!

sg2292: 47M | straight | Waldwick, New Jersey, United States
Yesterday - 5:54am - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

Heh.

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/blog/index.php/archives/99#comments

sweetbriar32: 36F | straight | Phoenix, Arizona, United States
Yesterday - 7:19am - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

sg2292 Women have minds? I thought our minds had been destroyed by all those romance novels!

sweetbriar Good find. I think she has it right. Personally, I've never wanted a husband. Would I like to find a great long-term partner? Damn right. Am I unhappy being single? No. I know I can be single and happy, and this means that I can afford to be choosy and look for someone who enhances my life, not settle for someone who doesn't make me feel warm and tingly. I don't expect Mr Perfect by anyone else's standards, and my wishlist is probably very different from a lot of folks. I've never wanted children, and don't need a 'provider'. But the old 'free union' term 'companion' seems very attractive to me. It doesn't have connotations of settling, but of someone who is there by your side, as you are by his, someone who is on your team.

When I think of two of my oldest friends, one has been with her husband (her second one as it goes) for 20 years, they love each other, still fancy the pants off each other, work as a team and are raising two great kids. They didn't settle, but they do know that you need to continue to love, respect and support your spouse, and communicate.

Another friend stays with her partner because she got pregnant. She's miserable. They don't get on, really, don't share a bed even. She keeps house, he works but pays her little attention. All they share is their son. I wouldn't want that kind of relationship.

If I'm single the rest of my life, I'll still be happy. My aunt has been single all her life, she's had an interesting and rewarding life, and still does in her late 70s. She's a wonderful person, and has good friends. She's not lonely. She has surrogate grandchildren (my niece and nephew). If you are a good, interesting and kind person you will never be short of friends. And unlike a husband you don't really care for, you can shut the door on them if you need some time alone.

Finally, I think one of the big issues in relationships these days is that some men are so lacking in confidence that they think if women don't need men, they won't want them. I don't need a paycheck or a protector. At a pinch, I don't need a penis, either. But I do want a man, a companion, a lover, even, yes, a soulmate. A tall order? Maybe, but worth hanging on for.

harpy61: 47F | straight | Chicago, Illinois, United States
Yesterday - 8:15am - 0% match, 0% friend, 0% enemy

Read and post comments | Send to a friend

JudgeRight

Girls

Conservative in the Dating World

JudgeRight's Journal