Girls

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I applaud the lovely message to girls to uphold their values as girls and not cave in to pressure. The more that drum is beat the better for our girls. On the other hand, I say this with love and respect to you JudgeBob, no girl is rotten. None. Society has got girls calling other girls sluts, whores, etc. If girls denigrate each other, the door is open for boys or men to. Again it is a noble sentiment to tell girls to hold their standards high and expect men to. I see a lot of girls - many whose behavior I don't condone, and many I've told straight to their faces - with love and earning their trust that I will not share their mistakes if they change them. As a woman, as a mother of girls, as an aunt to girls, a sister, a daughter, I say, no girl is rotten.

I take a risk saying that. But I will risk it.
Are there rotten boys?
[this is good]
Nice!

Reminds me of my top of the tree girl. Not bragging, just blessed.


Congratulations on your wisdom or God's divine providence to bless you. I happened to have had neither when I married. Oh, she was alright but not from the top and I certainly wasn't a good catch by any stretch of the imagination.
What a lovely example of worth to share with my daughters.
Are there rotten boys?

Howling with laughter. Nice to lighten things up.


Noooooooooo. I have the pleasure of one nephew on my side of family out of all girl cousins, only female aunts, all nieces, etc. And he is a GREAT kid - honorable, gentle soul but major athlete, sweet, unabashedly loving, a pure heart. As are his friends. I am honored to know him. Many nephews on husband's side. ALL great kids. Now my daughter's dates - those guys we greet with a shot gun :)
Are you serious about your comment? Is this from a currently married man? Or divorced?

I happened to have had neither when I married. Oh, she was alright but not from the top and I certainly wasn't a good catch by any stretch of the imagination.


Final comment. Of course we want all girls to stay on top branches. And I treasure and am proud of my girls. But even if girls are easy, they are not rotten. :)
Credit for the work goes to megan who's page is linked. Sometimes, wandering around the net turns up more than an interesting contribution among the sands of commentary and pictures and uninformed opinions.
I was being very serious. I wanted to know if you were being hypersensitive to criticism of girls or to criticism in general.

I have been divorced since before joining a church. That's approximately 17 years ago.

The world is full of evil. It takes a disciplined person or a pure soul to not have been corrupted by it. Even without outside influence, people are inherently evil. Some evil is overt, its easy to spot evil when someone is torturing and killing animals before moving on to humans. Some evil is subvert, its not so easy to recognize evil when its hidden, excused, or generally accepted by society. Hypersensitivity to criticism of girls or children or any group provides an environment for evil to fester. An example is the lowered expectations for the behavior of blacks. Ergo, the higher crime rates, higher counts of unwed mothers and teen pregnancy, higher rates of drug abuse and alcoholism.

This pop-culture idea that "we shouldn't judge people" is relatively new, but the results will be similar to the soft racism which ushered in such detrimental and devastating effects on the black community. Not only are we not holding the black community to the same standards of behavior as other races, we are no longer requiring these standards of behavior for our own children.

It is never okay to encourage or even allow children to be mean to one another. Using our judgment is not meant for meanness, even if it is used that way by some. It is meant for self protection and for building a lifestyle for success. Success is a generally happy, secure, and reasonably comfortable and productive life. Our country was designed to provide this opportunity for as many of its citizens as possible but was never meant to be a guaranteer of success. Its necessary to fight evil to ensure our children retain those opportunities. Refusing to allow criticism undermines the responsibility to use judgment. Some girls are better than others. This doesn't refute any of their inherent value, but it does call each of us into the discretion of choice and reviewing character and comparable behavior patterns to determine who is a better life partner. People who've never been trained into self discipline or who refuse to submit to standards of behavior don't make very good life partners.
Okay, I am rushing to an appointment. Thank you for your candor. And for clarification. Listen, if a girl tried to sell my daughter heroin, I'd say she was evil. If a female teacher seduced a boy teen, I'd say she was evil. If a boy tells a girl she should sleep with him or she doesn't love him, is he evil? No. But his behavior is extraordinarily damaging. If a girl sleeps around is it okay? No. That's not what I'm saying. Who wants that for even women? Or men, but there is a double standard on that issue - and THAT I will say more about later.
Regarding more crime by blacks? You just opened a well I could dip into. Read Blink. Maybe there is more crime where there is poverty. But there is definitely more imprisonment where color is involved. Read the studies. I hate to post and run...but gotta go. I'm sorry about the end of marriage. No one is perfect. And I don't believe people are inherently evil. I believe the opposite. I do believe there is an inherent pull - entropy - toward all things that disintegrate, including goodness. More later? :)
Back to rotten, I was talking about young girls - that was the theme. So no, short of sociopath or psychopath, no child (boy or girl) is inherently rotten. LATE NOW! :)
OK, I have read all of the comments and have a few things of my own to say. I do believe boys and girls CAN be rotten. I know this because I was at one time. (By boys and girls, I do not mean 4 or 5 year olds. We are talking preteen and older) Almost any stupid choice a person can make, I have made it. When an "apple" falls from the tree and starts to rot, there are two things that can happen. One is to continue to rot, and rot the ones around it. Or it can dig into the ground, plant new roots, and start over. Being the guide to new "apples" and helping them grow.
I do believe that its a choice to become "rotten". You may not know that is the path you are on at the time, but its still a choice. Some of that choice comes from the way you are raised, or the other people you are around, even loss of faith (no matter what faith you are).
I have 3 children of my own. The only thing I can do is hope they do not walk the same path I did, and try to keep them safe. Maybe they wont become "rotten"

I completely identify with your assessment. I too, am of the rotten variety, but have hit the ground and restarted. One of the points I was making was that a requirement for a good apple is proper instruction. Kids who come from good stable homes sometimes wind up making rotten choices ala their characters and sometimes, kids who come from the worst homes become moral stars. These are the exceptions rather than the rule. As a rule, parents must provide the environment that typically results in the kind of character we want to build in our kids. In that endeavor, we can do more than hope our kids turn out as successes. We can example the behavior patterns we want to instill in them. We can communicate the thought processes of making moral choices. We can surround them with adults that also represent the best society has to offer. A great place to accomplish all three of these is the local church. The church itself must be accountable to the standard of the Bible and must represent a standard bearer in the community.
Ezibella, I liked how you said it. And I love your candor :) It is different angle and helps move the conversation better than I could. And JudgeBob took it further and it became rich.. Yes we can all be rotten. But acting a way and being a rotten person are two different things entirely. Your description of the apple planting and growing leaves is lovely. I believe it is called Redemption. I am glad that for the first time on a site conservative Christians can say "I too have made mistakes, I too have sinned." It's called the human condition. And if all that is shared on blogs is moral outrage and - and we don't acknowledge our own imperfections, then people don't want to hear the political.social or moral messages either. Because they start to sound holier than thou.

A priest once said to me the church had a "sign" over it: "All Sinners Are Welcome." So yes, we can do rotten things. And we can put Bibles out, go to great church serivces, provide faith=based education, but there is the entropy of culture beckoning and as JudgeBob says no one can predict how our kids will lead their lives. They will make their own mistakes. Okay. Do we want them to? NO! With Grace, a very precious gift, we learn, grow, change, and we become like St. Paul. Not saints - but you get my drift - we become witnesses to God's Glory. So I think we are on the same page in many ways. I have done stupid things and rotten things and cruel things. And we learn. It's called Grace, Wisdom. Discernment. All gifts.

But the reason I took issue was semantics. A friend once said she rejected the word "spoiled" (aka rotten) because it implied damaged goods. And no child 4, 15, 16, 17 is "damaged goods." Many who are engaged in this conversation are weren't always perfect and it sounds like we asked for forgiveness and chose a new path. So then, what does that do? It gives Glory to God. People who sin and change are often the greatest witnesses. Except as JudgeBob said for the few who are of the Mother Teresa variety. Pure at all times.
Make sense? I hate these teeny boxes to write in. I always end up making mistakes!
Thanks both. A good dialogue. It brought Love present. Humanity, hope and transcendence. Doesn't sound too rotten to me. :)

I agree wholeheartedly with your statements regarding inherent wickedness. This premise is a fundamental teaching of the Christian faith as well. That said, it's kind of hard for me to take credit for blessings (like a top of the tree girl). Your words and testimony are encouraging.

I forgot to say last post. I really did like the poem. I am going to share it with my daughters and my son. "Boys" should read this as well. Yes it will help show the girls that they should wait and understand its not a problem with them. I think it can also show the boys that the "top apples" are what they should reach for. It will let both know, they easy was is not always the best. Thanks again for passing it on.


Regarding more crime by blacks? You just opened a well I could dip into. Read Blink. Maybe there is more crime where there is poverty. But there is definitely more imprisonment where color is involved. Read the studies.

We all agree that the crime rates are higher, we all agree that blacks are over represented inside our prisons. We can also agree that poverty is inherent in those communities. The question is, why? I purport that soft racism explains a great deal of it. Again, hypersensitivity to criticism creates an environment for evil to fester. Soft racism protects individual blacks from outside criticism. So, poverty and crime rates are a result rather than the cause. When the black community acknowledges this problem by members of their own families then we have to consider which came first, which caused the other: link
[This post didnt piss me off at all! I just read Bill Cosby's book and it read exactly like this post(and was a welcome change from the Clarence Thomas memoir I read last week---dont ask).
you and Cosby hit the nail on the head--Our expectations are too low, period. High-school is free damn-it,the least we can do expect our kids to finish!
Hell when I graduated high-school I knew there was no money for me to go to college but I was still expected to go and I did. I got a job(every scholarship I could get and loans) and paid for school. When did the bare minimum become the maximum in our community?]
One of the commenters on that blog said it began with school integration. I don't know about that, but I do know that everyone, especially Democratic policymakers and courts have set the system up to expect less. Something else to consider is that poverty is far worse in other countries but their crime rates, teen pregnancies, unwed pregnancies, etc., do not reflect a relationship between the two.



And I don't believe people are inherently evil. I believe the opposite.

This is crucial. It goes to the heart of assessing the human condition. I don't know if you are a mother, but have you ever had to train a child to lie, hit, steal, or any of the myriad of evil behaviors? Did anyone have to train you to do these things? In point of fact, we have to be trained out of doing these things. We have to be trained to value others and respect boundaries. If we weren't inherently evil, these things would be automatic for us. A young adult boy must be called into his manhood, otherwise he will remain a boy his entire life. A man understands his role in society to be a protector and defender as well as provider. A boy may be aggressive but never learns to channel that aggression toward a constructive endeavor unless another man takes him aside and explains that role to him. With so many missing fathers in the black community, many of these guys are never called into that role. I am speaking from personal experience. While I had a father in the home, either he didn't understand it himself or he wasn't there at the point that this normally occurs. I didn't come into my manhood until I was in the church, after my marriage fell apart. Funny enough, even then it wasn't clearly laid out for me until I saw the movie "Second Hand Lions." The concept was there and the teaching was there and even the example, but the full context was concisely laid out in the movie.



Great poem. This blog has diverted quite a bit from the original poem, but I think the ultimate point is that no one ever appreciates that which they did not have to strive for. A boy doesn't appreciate an easy girl and will never cherish her the way he will a modest girl for whom he had to strive. Similarly, an easy girl doesn't think well of herself. Those "top" apples may not be the most "popular" girls at school, but in the end they will be the most desirable and have the best relationships, because they required such through their actions and self-respect.
I go back to the top apples for a moment. Why are girls supposed to be the top apples? Am I missing something? Are boys to use this metaphor allowed to grab the bottom but only marry the top? Nice to share with boys if you give them the same message. Respect girls, don't pressure them to have sex, wait until marriage. Why doesn't someone say, "I want my boys to treat ALL girls like they are top apples" (again continuing with the metaphor)? Why did not one person say they expect boys to be top apples too?

That is part of the problem. Girls, misguided, want love, acceptance. The "easy" ones - are they easy or are they insecure and boys tell them, "if you loved me, you'd sleep with me." Or as one guy told me, "The key is to tell a girl you love them." Actually he said to tell a woman. He was in his 40's!

I read somewhere that most of the women who chose to sleep around when they looked back, regretted it. So I still take issue with rotten apples and only easy girls.

Mothers raise your sons to wait. But they don't. I see it. I see the mother's with one set of standards to protect their girls and another to more or less just accept "he's a boy." Baloney.

And I don't believe people are inherently evil. I believe the opposite.

This is crucial. It goes to the heart of assessing the human condition. I don't know if you are a mother, but have you ever had to train a child to lie, hit, steal, or any of the myriad of evil behaviors? Did anyone have to train you to do these things?

Very good points. I was sharing this exchange with my husband and daughter on the way to appointment last night. And I said, I had said people were inherently good. Years ago I said that and my liberal husband and liberal friend laughed at me. Pollyanna.

God made "man" in his image. And we were given free choice. So maybe I am wrong. I just reject the semantics "evil." There is evil. But I don't believe people are inherently evil. I believe we choose wrongly often. And God is calling us and waiting for us to hear.

Soft racism protects individual blacks from outside criticism. So, poverty and crime rates are a result rather than the cause. When the black community acknowledges this problem by members of their own families then we have to consider which came first, which caused the other: link

Lexann is right, this does digress from the poem. I will make one comment.

I read it. I get it. But make no mistake, I read in the communities where there are drive-by shootings and drugs being sold, that the churches, the mothers, the grandmothers, the ministers do demand more.

No one should hold the lowest of standards for their children or their community. That's just defeatist. And racism exists in the black community (about themselves) as well as in the white community.

And I love Bill Cosby for the drum he beats for the greater good of the black community. He's right.




You are correct in the double standard for boys and girls in expectations for morality in relationships. This goes back to my concern about criticism. This soft sexism against boys creates an environment for evil to fester. At the same time boys are aggressive from the start and receive much more criticism for their aggressive nature. According to modern day anti-wisdom, there is no difference between boys and girls except in the environment of expectation so that a boy plays with trucks because that is what is expected of him while a girl plays with dolls because that is what is expected of her. One scholar decided to prove this by giving his girl trucks. He wrote a book about the misconception and relays this story. Forgive me if I don't have it precisely as he told it but I'm telling it from memory.

His little girl had taken the trucks and had put them to bed. When the doctor asked her what she was doing, she told him they had to have their naps. She had given them names and was treating them like dolls. At this the doctor gave in and started treating her like the little girl she was. By the time this 'modern wisdom' had been debunked, some thirty years of education of future managers, teachers and policy makers had passed through the institutions of higher learning. Much of that 'wisdom' had been employed and that's why we have such a bias against boys' aggressiveness to such an extent that it is labeled a disorder and many are being treated with psychotropic drugs to 'correct' the 'problem.'

I believe boys need to be valued for their aggression and expectations need to be raised for their morality in relationships. This has been an issue of training since the beginning. The Bible lays out different expectations for men and women in their relationships. Women are instructed to respect their husbands while men are instructed to love their wives. Loving and nurturing comes naturally to a woman but respect does not. Conquest comes naturally to a man but devotion does not.
In and out of house and compelled by our dialogue. I believe boys and girls are biolically different. I took a course and was told what was told in the Bible: girls, respect your husband, honor him. Men, love and take care of your woman. I also was told that because as you shared girls are by nature nuturing and protectors of life, they are our hope for the future. So men should protect. A woman's number one priority is "relationship" - inherently, biologically. A man's number one priority is competition and winning and ego. And yes, aggression is part of their biology. And they know women are their hope.

But getting back to my point. I tell girls to only choose a man that would be a good father and has good moral values. If you don't see that, move on. And I correct an earlier post. It's time fathers (and mothers) tell their boys to treat women with honor and dignity and keep them as top apples. It's time fathers told their boys to wait. Soft sexism - No. Hard-wired sexism.
We're very close in viewpoints. Thanks for commenting.

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JudgeBob

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